Moving Into Products with Vito Peleg
In this episode I talk to Vito Peleg, the founder of WP Feedback. Vito and his team launched WP Feedback in the summer of 2019 and it was one of the most spectacular and well executed product launches I've seen in the WordPress space. This was manifested in more than $100,000 in sales in the first month. Listen to Vito unpack the journey from freelancer, to agency, to successful product business.
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Transcript of this episode (automatically generated)
Today on the show. I'm excited to bring on a Vito Peleg to tell the story of how he went from client work to one of the most eye catching product launches in the WordPress ecosystem that I remember at least Vito is the founder of WP feedback, a product that helps you systematize your website, project delivery process from start to finish.
From what I recall from my conversation with Vito at the hallway track at WordCamp Brighton, he started out busking in the streets of London, and I can't wait to unpack his journey on this episode. You can find Vito on Twitter at feedback WP. Before we begin the episode, I want to tell you a bit about Branch.
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I started this episode by asking Vito to explain what his business looked like before he launched WP feedback. Vito, you want to try to explain how your business looked before you launched WP feedback, and then two weeks after you launched it. Like how did it look before and how did it look after?
Before WP Feedback I had an agency and we're working at 12 guys, a few was in London, but the rest were abroad, you know, like all around the world. And we were basically building websites for clients that was the day-to-day every day, full few years. And then having a few hundreds of projects that throughout this time. I was looking for a way to get out of the agency model for a while.
You know, when I was looking at all kinds of different aspects, maybe creating even a course. Or, you know, all of these kinds of channels that people look to scale up while I was doing my research and how I can actually do this. The problem with communicating with clients is always been there. Um, and you always jump around between a thousand tools and they, you know, they, you just don't get on the same page as they did.
But while I was trying to focus on finding a way to scale, this was actually really hurting our business and profitability on the other side. So I came up with the idea of how it should be laid out, and I asked the dev team to build it for us. You know, not even thinking about this as it's going to be the product, but actually thinking about, okay, let them fix this problem while I actually focused on what I want to build as a way to scale up, but it worked like magic.
And then it just kind of dawned on me that it's probably not a problem that only I am experiencing. We went on the market research and as soon as we launched it, we had a pretty nice explosion right at the beginning. We managed to generate six figures in revenue within the first 30 days as a new product in this space, this was groundbreaking.
Like no one did that before. And yeah. And so as soon as this happened, I was like, okay, no more client work. That's it. It was clear. Cut like that. You were just telling me before we hit record. That you're working on V2 of WP feedback and it felt like the way you described it, like, it feels like there's quite a big difference between mean doing client work and being product business.
So like what's the day to day difference between your old business and the business you're running now. Right. So in my previous business, I was the business. So I was in the middle of everything and I was the biggest bottleneck of the company. Everything had to land on my table. Well, it was distributed out to other people.
So my day to day was very much influenced by that. I was actually, yeah, talking to clients and sending out invoices and making sure that this task has been done. And following up with my team. Doing all of those, uh, repetitive tasks that are mind numbing. I even compare this. If you remember it back in the fifties, there was this lady is that the call centers, where they were just like redirecting the calls from one place to another.
And that was my day, you know, looking back, it's such a devaluation of my time. Doing this three hours out of every day, uh, that it's crazy compared to what I'm focusing on right now. So now I'm a lot calmer to be honest, but I was back then, you know, I delegate a lot more. So I'm totally aware that the way that this product has developed as evolved over the past year and a half, it brings it to a point where I am no longer the thing, you know, I don't matter.
In the grand scheme of things, it's all about understanding the client's needs, our user's needs. And trying to implement that. And when you're working as an agency, you only get to build the first version of the product. In most cases, you know, you build a website and then you send off to the client to figure things out on his own.
Of course you do care plans and stuff, but there's no continuous development in. Most of the projects, you know, which means that, um, for us, the client is the client, you know, is the guy that bought the website. But now the client is actually the user, which I think is a much more healthy, uh, way of looking at things.
So of course we were doing market research with our clients and asking them, who is your target audience and all of that. But, you know, you can't be as tuned into the end. Clients wants and needs as when you are the guy in charge of the product itself.
So we definitely going to talk a lot more about dopey feedback. I tease this in the intro, but you, your background is as a musician and it's kind of funny. Like, I feel like every time I talk to someone in Europe, the way they started making websites is because they built a band website. And when I talk to people in the U S it's always the church website.
So I don't know what that tells you about people, but it's just interesting. So you got started in music. I found your band on YouTube. JC ACE, right? It's the band. So people can go and check that out. We'll link that in the show notes as well. And somehow you ended up running WordPress agency. How did that happen?
I always want to, you know, since I was a teenager, I wanted to be a rock star. That was my kind of dream as a teenager. And that was my focus. So we were actually building a band back home in Tel Aviv in Israel and, you know, doing the rounds for a few years, trying to make it right while this was happening.
Of course, you have to make some kind of a living. So I started getting into digital just a little bit more from the point of view of, I had a pretty nice success with my space, with a band. And I built our first website in a four when I was in high school with geo cities. If you remember back in the day, we got it.
Then megabytes to build the site for free. And so I already had a bit of experience with HTML CSS and all that kind of stuff. But, uh, when we actually got signed and we all moved to the UK, started touring around the world from our base was here in London. That's when I needed to create some revenue while I was on the road.
So I was literally living in a van and I was looking for a way to make money cause the band wasn't cutting it. And so. I started building websites for clients. You know, they just came from the experience that they saw, how I'm marketing the band. And I built our kind of, uh, resources and stuff like that.
So we start with friends and family, and that was my first freelancing. This, you know, stealing wifi for McDonald's as we pass by on the Autobahn. After that ended, you know, we finished kind of our twenties and that we put the bands to rest. I said, all right, let's see what I can do to actually grow this business.
Within the first year, I got to six figures in revenue as a freelancer, they said, all right, let's scale this up and see what we can do in year three. I already had a team of 12. And then by year four, we were already doing WP feedback. So I feel that it's kind of a continuous evolution, you know, from being a freelancer.
And I would even say from being a musician, like you're saying, eh, there's a lot of creativity involved, a lot of manifestation of something out of nothing. This very much relates to how people build websites. You know, you have that picture in your mind. Kind of the same as you create a song, you know, you get the content, right.
The designer does all their production and the sound around it, and you need to also market it and launch it too, so that people actually listen to it eventually. Yeah. It feels like every step was the school that I needed for the next one. That's very interesting. Um, thinking now, like as a musician, you need inspiration.
To come up with songs, but when you're talking about business as well, like what was your inspiration and how did you learn about the next step and what inspired you to. Grow pretty fast actually, and keep like moving to the next stage and not end up getting stuck at one stage. Yes. Thanks. Stagnant. Which is what a lot of people do.
And sometimes it's the right thing to do if your goal is different than that's cool. You know, it's just a matter of knowing what you want. And, you know, I see a lot of our users that are freelancing. Successfully for years, they're not looking to build a massive team or to grow beyond that. They are very satisfied with what they can provide for their family.
And they get satisfaction from actually doing the design work and working on the website itself. For me, I started the whole thing with a very early age when I decided that I wanted to be a musician. Everyone told me you can't. Right. That's the next thing that happens when you state the big goal, you're going to have people that's going to tell you that you can't.
And I try to kind of research on my own, figure it out. How can I, you know, I wasn't accepting the possibility of this not happening. And so I got into all of these business books and stuff like that when I started reading. And literally when I was 16 years old, if you remember there was back then I reach that Paul dad and all of those things.
That build your mindset. And I think that this is the core of it. If you have the mindset for growth, you're going to grow and that's it, you know, everything else figures itself out. But if you have that intention that you're going to be at a newer, bigger, a better place than where you are right now, everything is, will just happen around it.
That's cool. I think it sounds like when you started doing websites, when you were on the road, like you kind of fell into it a little bit because you learned the skill because you, you needed it for yourself, but when you launch the VP feedback, even though the product started out, it sounds like as an internal tool, it sounds like you were pretty intentional about that.
And Oh yeah. I would love to know like, basically when you knew that, okay, this is going to be a product. And because when it launched. It was a big splash. And, you know, the headline was that you got to $100,000 in annual current revenue and like the first month or something like that. Right. Which is incredible.
I've never heard about that in the word, the space before. So basically. From you decided this is going to be a product that we're going to go out in the market with. And you got to that amazing result. Like what did that look like? And that happened, first of all, there was a lot of intent in this. Like you're saying Peter, as soon as I decided that we're going to go down this route, I started looking at what is happening in this space.
And I've been using WordPress for 12 years old, a little more than that. And, uh, throughout that experience, I got to know all of those products as a user, you know, so as a gravity form user, and even back then you'd have visual composer and all of that. And I with the tools as well. So I started with that as little bit of research into the space what's happening there.
I found a great blog by freemium famous.com. Which later they published the case study of how we reached our results. And that was an amazing resource to read. I just read the entire blog. Like it was a book just to kind of get to that insight. What I found is that, like we were saying before about some people that are deciding to be freelancers, which is cool.
This is the same concept that you see in the WordPress space when it relates to products. Some people are cool with having like a side project and that's what they want to, they just want to have a few extra thousand dollars added. To their revenue every month. And that's cool, you know, that's, that's the goal achieved.
Right? And I, to be honest, I also have one plugin like that, that is running in the background. No one really knows about, but that's part of it, you know, that it just runs on its own. But with WP feedback, I decided to look at the big companies and see what they do because I saw a massive, massive potential.
And more than realizing it myself. We went out and did market research. So we surveyed 600 WordPress professionals. I think the booklet, when we met last year, Peter, right? Yep. And surveyed the 600 WordPress professionals to see what they do, how do they deliver a project and what is their workflow look like?
And then we saw it's a complete mess all across the ecosystem. So I found that there was a massive kind of a demand for something like this. And we approached the whole thing. Very strategically with a launch sequence. So we use the survey as the first mechanism of getting the better users and delighted the beta users to the point where they helped us promote the hell out of this thing.
When we went out to the market a month after the beta started that coupled with, uh, Just being out there. This is what I kind of call the omnipresent strategy where you want to try and corner a group of people from every angle possible. So, uh, I was on the podcast, you know, during the podcast rounds and the, every conference that happened, I was there last year.
Yeah. So I did about 20 something conferences throughout 2019. This is where we met as well, Peter, less, uh, in a blight or last year also, we were running Facebook ads, Google ads that are doing remarketing to the same audience, which created this experience that we came out of nowhere and with every well.
That's how it felt. Yeah. That was the strategy. It's just, you want to try and map out all of these touch points that your target audience might have with you and in the WordPress space that would be being at WordCamp speaking at WordCamps a sponsoring WordCamps that would include doing partnerships with companies like GoDaddy or elegant marketplace or WP engine, and also being on all of these podcasts.
So that you're always seen. All I did was tell my story. But I am the user, you know, so it made it very relatable and very easy for our target audience to say, okay, this guy has experienced the same problem. I am. The only difference is that he took the time to figure it out and build something that will fix it.
And now I can benefit from it. That was the intent. That's awesome. Did you start with any kind of. Discount or deal or something like that to get that initial revenue. Yes. So my, my thought was this, if I want to build a business and I saw this form of hundreds of clients that we were building, uh, websites and basically online businesses for, and how they treated the marketing after.
And again, it's the same thing as musicians. Some people, what they do is they. Put all of their effort into the album, you know, they spend, they spent 10 years creating the album, making sure that it's perfect and they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars getting the best mastering engineer that will go in and put that gloss finish on top of it, work with producers and all of that mess.
But then there's no budget for marketing. Even more than that, there is no focus on how to bring this to the market. So I was always, it was loaded with the music under this different approach. And this is more like the lean startup kind of concept that you don't know until you go out there, you got to hypothesize an idea, bring it to the market, have them decide if it's good or not.
And then add them, tell you what needs improving to make it even better for them. So that was our strategy when it comes to the product, which means that from idea. To market. It took us two months and for me, better to pop a lunch, it took us 30 days. And from blanche to 130,000 in revenue, it took us 30 days.
Again, every stage had a clear path to it. Now, when I was starting, the thing I said, all right, if I really want to build a big company, I need to have a lot of money. Fast, but building AI building Emma is even harder, you know, getting those fuses, especially at an earliest stage where the product is probably not awesome.
You know, it just came to the market. So it's probably not going to be as amazing as a Santa or, uh, you know, active campaign or, or these products that have been around for more than a decade and been improving this with teams of dozens of people. So we decided to go down the lifetime loud to get people, to invest into the product early on.
Have just a limited amount of lifetime licenses that we're going to be selling. And this way we have a small group of people that invested a lot, which means that they are invested in the success of the product long-term and they are also invested in giving us those feedback reports, telling us the hard truth that sometimes as product makers, we don't want to heal.
So when you get to someone to spend a few hundred bucks, they're going to tell you the truth, no matter what you say, right. I actually leaned into that. I embraced that as the mechanism of improving. Now, talking about lifetime deals, those two approaches to this, there is the AppSumo out and there is what we did.
Uh, the AppSumo out is I think a bad idea. I say why? I think that, that, um, it's already putting you. Support at a place where it can't handle it and absolutely is designed for founders that we're not awesome at marketing and they need to get those initial users. Right. That's usually the case for the product on there.
So if you don't know what you're doing in marketing, I guess that might be a good approach, but it's not going to be. Profitable as doing it on your own. For me, this round, this launch round was the mechanism of creating the seed round that we needed. I think that's what I kind of, even when we talked about this last year, I told you about this seed round concept is like, how can I get a few hundred grand?
So I can actually build a popup company, not just a bootstrap. The life out of it, we sold licenses for 500 to $600 each, which means that we got about 300 users that will on this plan. You could see how that leaves the support at a pretty easy going state. It's only 300 users, but then also allow us to build enough reserves to execute on the plan like sponsoring WordCamps or spending Facebook ads to begin other users that will actually start building the all.
And throughout out the rest of the year, this was the base. So after your big launch, there must have been a lot of work to do, like incorporating all the feedback and talking to those users. But also like that's when you also start to build up that more like recurring revenue from those people that aren't on a lifetime deal.
Exactly. It sounds like the hard work maybe starts after that initial launch. Yes. Yes. I guess every stage is a hard work on its own. Uh, it has its own challenges, but you're right. Building ALR is not easy, you know, especially in the highly competitive world where it's not a matter of direct competition.
I am in competition with JPL because the user is spending $100 a month on JPL. So even though we don't do anything related, they are already chipping into the user's budget. So I agree. This is definitely one of the challenging parts of it, but without having the seed round, I think we would have gone bust way before we reached a point of profitability, you know, just for me.
So your customer funded in a very like literal sense, I guess they did. Yeah.
What does WP feedback look like today? What's the product like, and what's the business like? So nowadays, which is one and a half years after we first launched this, we launched it in last June, June of 19. Now the solution is being used on more than 11,000 websites. We closed year one with very nice, uh, profit, as well as, uh, growing the team to a team of nine guys, full time, uh, developers and team members that are helping the product.
Grow first of all, as a product itself, you know, it's cool. Uh, but also, uh, attracting more users and making sure that as the product evolves, and this is one of our latest challenge that is very interesting. As a product evolves, people have a different perception of how it was. Compared to where it is right now.
And I think that you might have the same experience with your product, Peter, because the startup process is an iterative process. You know, where you go and you play around and you see what works and what moves the needle for you and for the user, or even better for the user and also for you. And then you add features or pivot features according to that.
So when we started, it was the MVP, let's call it, you know, version 1.0. Was a sticker stool. You know, you could install a plugin on a website and you get a layer on the top of the phone and the backend that allows you to put post-it notes that are attached to the HTML elements of the page itself, which means that it makes it super easy and visual to collaborate and to communicate internally inside the website, instead of taking screenshots and sending links and doing all of that, you get the thing on email with no screenshot and just forwards.
Yeah. You have one hour to figure it out what the client is even talking about. Once you do, you take a screenshot and then you send it to the devs and they take the screenshot, go back to the website. It's a whole fragmented mess. Our initial point was to fix this process, but from the get-go, the vision was, we need to build the.
Only system or the best system to deliver website projects. And that's when, uh, we built the dashboard, which is not attached to work with at all. It's more of a SAS solution on Lavelle and react that allows for the user to integrate all of their websites into one centralized hub that acts as your inbox, because the way I see it, email is the biggest threat.
To, to, uh, uh, to your clarity when you're dealing with communications specifically around visual stuff. And 87% of the market is using email, uh, which is a 30 year old tool that was never designed for this use case to collaborate and communicate something that is super highly. Visual that is the dashboard itself.
And now inside the dashboard, we have our task center, which brings in and filters automatically all of the different tasks from all of the different websites into one centralized place takes automated. Screenshots, tells you the screen size, the Basel version. So you're basically logging into there every morning as your inbox.
More than that, we elaborated the project, uh, uh, control feature, uh, which means that. Again, now the way people do it is they get a revision or request from a client. They copy it from their email into a sauna or into Trello or base camp, and then the developer, or they go in there and tackle the task from there.
Then go back to the email to notify the clients that it's done. So we said, all right, we can cut the whole thing out of it process because we already have the stickers on the website. They have statuses. So based on that, we created Kanban boards that give you the clearest snapshot of your project. Any given moment without any cost be paste or duplication of different platforms.
The van division Peter is to bring it all home. We get to a place where you manage the project. We like to say this from the proposal to the support, from a tool that doesn't fight you and it doesn't battery with every step that you need to train the client that you need to learn yourself, the ability to take a step of a project and move it from the wireframing stage that is done on a third party platform.
To the site mapping stage that is done on another platform to the task tracking that is not on another platform. So everything is like manually lifted and moved. And our vision says slide from one place to another. I think one place where branch and dopey feedback or similar. Is that they're both WordPress aware.
Like they both understand what a WordPress project is and what people need when they're working on a WordPress project. I agree. And this is something that there is no competition for work process of now in the market when it comes to building complex websites fast, you know, which is what most clients for smaller agencies, it's more business owners are looking for.
I believe that this focus is the way to go. Even though there is plans for the future. Once we grab enough of a market share here to explore other platforms as well. That's awesome. And it's definitely something I think that people should check out. Yes.
I want to get your thoughts on how. Other people can maybe start to explore the world of products. I don't know necessarily. And I want to hear what you think about this. If people need to go all in, like you did, like maybe there's a way to have a more smooth transition into product work, or just add some products to the mix.
Right? First of all, like I think a big challenge that people might have is. It sounds like you basically just dedicated your entire team to work on this for a couple of months. That's a big bed, essentially. So how should people think about like finding the time and resources to do this? Do you recommend the way you did it or do you recommend more like a transition or slow iterative process or something like that?
So I believe that speed builds momentum and now it's saving most. Speed to market will always beat perfection. So as soon as you can get something out there, then you start learning. But if you think her with it forever, you're never going to get to that stage. So the way that we approach this, first of all, I said, he was built for us internally.
So it was like super scrappy, you know, just something that we can use ourselves worked only on our stack. And, you know, in WordPress, every environment, there are. Uh, be in variations of people's stacks, uh, that you need to consider when you're building your product in this space. And we didn't have any of these challenges, you know, when we were just building it for us.
So initially it was a very small project that was just, we did it for a couple of days to get it out there. Then once we thought, all right, this works, let's develop this product. We actually created. I talked to my friend that is, um, after the fact, the designer. And I showed him the tool. I told them what we needed to look like.
And we created a screen cast video that is not real, you know, that is actually done in after effects. That is mocking up what the tool will do once it's ready. That's what we took to market initially, even before, you know, just to get to people's interests. And that got us like a mailing list of 1300 people that helped us actually get customers for me.
How did you get 1300 people? I took that video and I placed it on a few Facebook groups and LinkedIn groups, no money spent whatsoever. And the idea inspired people. So I told him that, uh, you can sign up and once we are ready, we'll let you know. We didn't promise that it's ever going to be ready, you know, but we just said that, uh, this is what we're building.
And if you want to hear about it, sign up here. So this was how we did our research that I told you right after people gave us their email, the next. Step straight after that was a survey. How do you gather the content right now? How do you approve designs right now? How do you provide support right now?
What is your go-to page builder? So we knew which tools we needed to be compatible with. Uh, at least from the first early stages. What is your go-to theme? All of these kinds of questions that help us slip. Yeah, the better. Uh, but your question Peter was more around, uh, eh, if people should go all in or not, right.
Yeah, but it sounds like you're definitely removing a lot of risk by going step-by-step and basically testing your assumptions in a way at each of the steps. Like you're being guided by the demand in the market. It sounds like when you're exactly, because it's all about feedback loops, you know, the feedback loop process means that you come up with an idea, you hypothesize something and then you got to build it or build some kind of an MVP of it so that you can bring it to market.
Best it get market feedback and then come up with new ideas that will listen. It's a never ending cycle, right? If you picture this in your mind and you picture it like a wheel, the faster, this will goes, the better momentum you're going to build for the business. So if you're trying to iterate something for a year, Before you're actually showing this to anyone.
You know, the wheel is not moving, I think a hundred years to get to where you would get competitive, completing a full feedback loop every week. And that was what we did even with the update rounds. Yeah. Uh, we were doing the first six months of the product. We were literally pushing updates. Every single week, every week there was a new feature.
There was a couple of bug fixes and, uh, you know, it slowed down a little bit after when we got deeper. So as the product evolves, there's a lot more conditions to take into account, uh, before you can actually push or complete a feedback loop. And that's what happens, you know, if you're looking at it, In bigger companies.
So like corporations and stuff, their feedback loops are super, super slow. And that is because of that. You know, you have bureaucracy that builds over time, uh, because of the depth of the company or the product itself that requires safety mechanisms. So you don't break things as you're going through those loops.
When you're young, when you're early, you can run through a lot every single day. I think that's some really solid advice. If people are looking for product ideas and they're already doing client work, do you recommend that they look for internal tools like you did? Or how should they go about finding those ideas?
Do you have any thoughts about, yes. So I actually answered this through a friend of mine that works in real estate. You know, we worked with a real estate agency, uh, for the past few years now we had a kid who had just had a baby girl and the, it was, uh, asking me Vito, how can I actually generate a little more cash for my family now, which is more of the side business concepts that you were describing.
I told him, just look at your day and see what you can automate. And build that, that's it. So what he did is he found a thing that every time they have a guy that is a, you know, a landlord that is from abroad and they need to do the taxes thing here in the UK, whatever he needs to send something to this guy and then send it to that guy and then log into this website and then.
Go to that thing. And it's a posters that a lot of people don't want to do, and he knows how to do it. So to him, it takes him like 10, 15 minutes and it gets, it done gets 300 pounds every time he does it himself manually. So don't automate it, you know? And that's it keep the 300 pounds every time someone needs it, even more, put them on a cycle because taxes come every year and you're good.
You know, you have a little product.
There's one more question I want to ask you. Is there anything you miss about doing client work? Am. No, I don't think so. To be honest with you, we do have a few clients that are on the care plan. So we don't do any, any new projects. Right. Uh, but we do have care plan clients that we kept, uh, just so that we can still get high on our own supply.
You know, so we're still using our product every day and the developers and the support agents go in, use the product to help, uh, our. 10 clients that we have kept using the tool on their day to day operations, which that we're there to find the bugs before I will use those do. Other than that, you know, I gained so much clarity since I stopped this forces.
I can hear now from a lot of our users that thanks to our platform, this really helps alleviate a lot of these pain points that I was experiencing. But a lot of your day is basically dealing with it. The people that don't have full trust in you. If that makes sense. You know, you always put under the place where you're a little bit questions about your motives, if you will, you know, because you're actually supplying the service to these people, you know, that what you're doing is the right thing for their business.
But I don't know, you know, they're not meant to know if what you're doing is the right thing for their business. So they're always kind of on the questioning side in a lot of those relationships, but, and what I found is that this is poisoned for your mindset. Compared to being around a supportive group of people, which are our users, the same people as us, you know, they are agency owners and freelancers themselves, and they come from a constructive point of view rather than a, I don't think we should do that.
Maybe we can do it like that. And because I don't have a lot of these communications on phone or this I'm getting to experience these conversations. On my day to day, you know, like what we're having right now, uh, you know, you talk to smart people, you learn things along the way, as opposed to saying the same thing.
Can you please send me the log ins to the domain register? Well, no, this is not the domain register. Yeah, I think people can definitely relate to that. That's great. Vito, thank you so much for sharing your story. Uh, this was really good. If people want to learn more about doopy feedback or you, where should they go?
Please visit WP feedback.co. Our users are seeing an 80% decrease in the project completion time from the standard five weeks. Down to 10 days, three weeks down to three days. It's miraculous. So I invite everyone to come one boat and try it out. Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks spitter. Uh, out to you at the next work camp.